Sunday, 21 December 2008

A Sudden Volt-Face or the Status Quo?

Under the Latin phrase ad hominem, the following appears on the sidebar of AW blog: "While there is wide latitude on what appears under comments, abusive posts and name calling aimed at other posters will mean a quick trip to the trash folder." One wonders what has brought about this sudden volt-face by him who is without an original idea in his head, but delights in abusing and pouring scorn on anyone who doesn't share his irrational opinion that WCG under Mr. Armstrong was a dangerous cult.

Of course, the cabal of scoffers who coalesced around the AW blog, especially the foul mouthed Douglas and the depressed Dennis, will find this pretended road to Damascus experience quite chilling. As they love to wallow in and relish the opportunity to draw out of their reservoir of abuse, the vilest of expletives to hurl at anyone who doesn't agree with their insane opinions!

But as repentence cannot be contrived, this pretended road to Damascus experience must be seen for the sham it is.

Still, I will remain at Mizpah until desolation overspreads the land.


11 comments:

Robert said...

The polls suggest a much more conservative audience (for instance the majority believed Xmas is pagan) yet the majority of comments are from the heretics we fled in the WCG. Perhaps some comments are censored to give this impression.

These heretics rather than embracing "the new changes" of the WCG rejected them, now finding themselves out on a limb with no religious beliefs. They remind me of the "snarling" crowd in Noah's day when he built the ark.

When Jesus comes back, these people will end up trying to fight against Him, because, their minds have gone too far away from truth, they will not be able to recognise Him when He returns to the earth. They will label our Messiah as the antiChrist, and will do everything to convince the rest of us that we are wrong.

Tom Mahon said...

Robert,

Your observations are very perceptive. But the insane cabal posting at AW blog, are worse than the "snarling" crowd in Noah's time. In Noah's time, Christ had not yet died for the sins of the world. So even though Noah's detractors were crazy, it was madness as a result of ignorance. That is why Jesus says: it will be more tolerable for the people of Sodom and Gomorrah than for those who reject his teaching, and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing.

These scoffers are better described as "dogs returning to their own vomit." The expression graphically illustrates the filth into which they have plunged!

The lake of fire will be too good for them, so the fate of the rich man awaits them!

Questeruk said...

"The lake of fire will be too good for them, so the fate of the rich man awaits them!"


Tom,

I am SO glad that I have to answer to God and not to you.

A God that says "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live".

Everyone, including the various shades of posters to AW, will FULLY understand at some point.

For many of them that point may not be at this moment - but they will understand; and when they do, then that will be the time that virtually all will turn to God.

Until then, a little mercy may be appropriate.

Tom Mahon said...

Questeruk said...

>>I am SO glad that I have to answer to God and not to you.<<

"Do you not know that the saints shall judge the world"(1 Cor.6:2).

>>A God that says "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live".<<

God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that does not mean the wicked will not perish.

The cabal of scoffers now posting AW blog, once claimed that they had turned from their wickedness, when they became members of WCG. Many were supposed to have repented; they were baptised, and one, in particular, was ordained to be a minister of Christ, but was a hireling!

Today, they have all repudiated what they once believed, and are now supporting the heretical and perverse opinion that WCG was a dangerous cult, and Mr. Armstrong was a false prophet.

Your opinion that one day they will come to their sense is not supported by scripture. On the contrary, the Scriptures described them as "dogs returning to their own vomit." When Christ returns they will be hurled into the lake of fire, where their worm dies not!

Questeruk said...

“When Christ returns they will be hurled into the lake of fire, where their worm dies not!”

Tom, a couple of questions.

1. Those people in the 2nd resurrection, who never had a chance to know God’s ways. They will have their opportunity in a society which KNOWS God is there ruling, and knows exactly what God wants and expects of them, and also knows what their reward is. And as you mentioned, the Saints will be there too, helping them to understand.

Under those circumstance, how many will be saved do you think? 90% ? Under those conditions I think it would be disappointing if it wasn’t nearer 98% or 99%. Would you agree?

2. Little over fifteen years ago 200,000 people were attending the Feast in WCG. The large majority of those people are still alive today. How many are keeping God’s Feasts. At best, including all brands of COG 50000.

How many of them would you, Tom, count as being true servants of God? Would you even consider 2000? Whatever the figure, it’s seriously way below the 200,000.

Are you seriously suggesting that for all the others “When Christ returns they will be hurled into the lake of fire, where their worm dies not!”

If you indeed only counted maybe 2000, that is around 1% success rate. Why would any person want to have any part in being called now? A 1% chance of success – but if not called until the second resurrection 99% chance of success.

If the above is anywhere near the real truth, why would any individual welcome being called at this time.

Rather than a call to life, it would be a call to death. It would be far, far better to not be called at this time.

Is that the way God really works?

Tom Mahon said...

Questeruk said...

>>1. Those people in the 2nd resurrection, who never had a chance to know God’s ways. They will have their opportunity in a society which KNOWS God is there ruling, and knows exactly what God wants and expects of them, and also knows what their reward is. And as you mentioned, the Saints will be there too, helping them to understand.<<

This idea was taught in WCG and is probably being taught in many of splinter COGs, but it is heresy. There are no scriptural texts that that support this doctrine.

Sadly, HWA never understood the time period of the first resurrection. As a consequence, he taught the church that it will occur at the return of Christ. But the first resurrection, which is spiritual, began on the day of Pentecost, and will end when "the fullness of the Gentiles hath come in."

Here is not the place to set out a detailed exposition of the first resurrection, but a couple of texts might get you thinking. Note Paul;s admonition to the Colossians: "If ye then be RISEN with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sits on the right hand of God"(Col.1:1). And in another passage to the Ephesians, we read: "Even when we were dead in sins, has quickened us together with Christ...and has RAISED us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus"(Eph.2:5-6). Both of these passages are referring to a spiritual resurrection, which is the first resurrection, which is here and now!

>>2. Little over fifteen years ago 200,000 people were attending the Feast in WCG.<<

Yes, but the majority of these people were never truly converted. In my local congregation in Birmingham, England, there were over 200 people attending services on a regular basis. Yet when the church broke up in 1995, my wife and I were the only two people who were not deceived by Satan to stay with WCG or join one of the divided splinter groups in cog-land.

Every single UK minister has turned out to be a hireling. Most of them are either with UCG or David Hulme. If anyone believes that David Hulme or the leadership of UCG are converted, s/he must be completely insane.

Questeruk said...

Interesting.

So Tom, what does happen to those that have never understood – or indeed those that were never truly converted? If there is no second resurrection, is there no hope for them? To me a vital issue, as we are talking of the vast majority of mankind here.


As regards the 1st resurrection, Jesus said in John 3v13 that “no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven”.

And Paul confirms this in I Cor 15. Verses 22 & 23 state:-

“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.”

At His coming – at the return of Christ, as explained further on in this same chapter.

V 51 & 52 “Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

At the return of Christ both the dead in Christ (who are described as sleeping), and those still living who are in Christ, shall be raised at that moment.

It is true that Col 3v1 and Eph 2v5 & 6 are interesting verses, but to be compatible with other scriptures, must be referring to allowing us, who were ‘dead in our sins’, the opportunity to be raised to eternal life by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

To be looking forward to our glorious destiny. Else why would Paul be referring to the dead in Christ being raised to life at the last trump, at the same time as those still living at that time are also changed?

Tom Mahon said...

Questeruk said...

>>As regards the 1st resurrection, Jesus said in John 3v13 that “no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven”.

And Paul confirms this in I Cor 15. Verses 22 & 23 state:-

“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.”

At His coming – at the return of Christ, as explained further on in this same chapter.

V 51 & 52 “Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

At the return of Christ both the dead in Christ (who are described as sleeping), and those still living who are in Christ, shall be raised at that moment.<<

MY COMMENT:

All of these texts are referring to the resurrection of the body, which is the second resurrection. This resurrection takes place at the last trump, which heralds the return of Christ.

On the other hand, the first resurrection, which is here and now, is a spiritual resurrection; when those that are called, granted repentance and baptised, are raised from spiritual death to spiritual life. It is sometimes referred to as conversion, born again, renewing of the mind or a new creation in Christ.

Jesus explained the first resurrection to Nicodemus, and he didn't understand it. And sadly, the ministry in WCG never understood it either, because they were blinded by the Laodicean disease of materialism.

>>>At the return of Christ both the dead in Christ (who are described as sleeping), and those still living who are in Christ, shall be raised at that moment.<<<

MY COMMENT:

The above is referring to their bodies, but the spirit of all genuine Christians continues to life in Christ, after their bodies have died. That is why Jesus told Martha: "Whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die"(John 11:26). And verse 25 refers to the first resurrection.

And the question: "Believeth thou this?" means, do you understand this profound truth!

Your concerns about the billions of people who you believe have never heard the gospel is explained by the allegory in Galatians 4:22-31. Have a read and let me know what you think?

Questeruk said...

Tom said re the dead being raised at the last trump:-

>>>>>
The above is referring to their bodies, but the spirit of all genuine Christians continues to life in Christ, after their bodies have died. That is why Jesus told Martha: "Whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die"(John 11:26). And verse 25 refers to the first resurrection.<<<<<

Do I understand you right on this? You are saying that, for example, Martha (assuming she stayed true to God’s way of life) would continue to live her physical life, then die, and immediately continue as a spirit being with Christ for the next two thousand or so years, and then take part in a resurrection to physical life again (you said the passage was referring to their bodies), a physical resurrection after a couple of thousand years of living as a spiritual being?

Where does this ‘temporary’ spiritual existence take place? I have already mentioned Jesus’ comment in John 3v13, so presumably this isn’t in heaven. This seems to me to be in agreement with Ecc 9v5 about the state of the dead prior to any resurrection.

“For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.”



Tom also said

>>>Your concerns about the billions of people who you believe have never heard the gospel is explained by the allegory in Galatians 4:22-31. Have a read and let me know what you think?<<<<

This is a passage looking at the duality of the two physical descendants of Abraham, with that of the coming of Jesus, and the opportunity of Salvation. Notice v28 & 29:-

“Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.”

There was now a spiritual promise, and the writer is using Abraham’s example to explain the parallel, showing that, whether Jews or Gentiles, individuals could become the children of the promise. He was also pointing out the persecution they would receive from others, who were not at that time children of the promise.

Are you suggesting from this that there is a large segment of humanity who can never receive the opportunity of salvation?

Act 4:12 says “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved”.

So clearly there are literally billions of people who have never even heard the only name that could save them. They lived their lives, and they died. Without a second resurrection, they have no salvation. Are you suggesting that they are indeed eternally lost?

Sounds like what they thought in Eze 37v11

“Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost…..”

But of course that is not the case, their hope was not lost, as the next few verse describe, culminating in v14

“And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live…..”

Tom Mahon said...

Questeruk asked...

>>Do I understand you right on this? You are saying that, for example, Martha (assuming she stayed true to God’s way of life) would continue to live her physical life, then die, and immediately continue as a spirit being with Christ...?<<

I am saying that Martha and all genuine Christians may physically die, but will always be alive in Christ through the spirit.

In the next couple of days, I will prepare a brief explanation of the first resurrection and post it to the blog. However, I am not sure you will be able understand it. For I get the impression that you may be attending or supporting one of the divided groups in cog-land. It this is the case, you may have fallen from grace, even though, like some who post at AW blog, you keep talking about God.

In addition, you have not grasped the significance of the allegory in Galatians chapter four. So I will also post an explanation.

So until, "Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light"(Eph.5:14). And this verse is not talking about a resurrection from the grave!

Questeruk said...

Thanks Tom, I will await you postings with interest.

Hopefully they will clarify things for me.